Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You are welcomed Catharsis jan, it's just that it is overwhelmingly sad that the turks' Lausanne Treaty that was not even legit, now thanks to our government in RA, namely Serje he'll be signing away any hope that we could have had of owning again at least parts of Western Armenia. The Wilson Arbitration that was completely legitimate, this guy Serje is forever signing it off and for what? To stay good with the US and Russia. This is a complete historical blunder on our part. I simply cannot believe it.

Indeed Anoush, there is still time, but with all the secrecy and lies when it came to these protocols, once again Sargsyan is being dishonest by saying this is "all" his "idea" and there is "no international pressure..." As I said, a good start is for him to start being honest and straightforward with the Armenian people. However, based on what we know now, I am not optimistic in this regard.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Anoush jan, let me ask you a rhetorical question. You have two options and can only pick one. The first is Armenia doesn't sign any documents with turkey and pursues the legal route of getting Western Armenia back. Second is Armenia signs the protocols and pursues the same goal as above, economically. Note that in both cases Armenia is taking a chance, it may or may not work out in Armenia's favor in either case. Now, which option would you pick and why?

OK Armanen, how is it possible by signing the protocols that align itself with the illegal Kars Treaty and signs off any parts or the mere hope of getting Western Armenia back will help us in any shape or form? Do you forget what Baruyr Sevag said in some of his poetry? Mer hoghere, mer sourp hoghere khelets meznits teshnamin. You think economically you'll get ahead with the turkish industries and start making bucks; let's suppose we do much better economically; but you also forget demographically as you also mentioned it before and so have I, that as it stand today we have a small little nation with 3 million population that do not produce more than 1-2 children per family while they may go up to 8 or 9 per family and if they are allowed to come in and overpopulate themselves our little Armenia who for now are 90+% all Armenian, doesn't that scares you? It scares the heck out of me.

I would much prefer not to sign the protocols, keep the status quo, see to it that Artsakh is accepted by world powers and RA by working with the Diasporan Armenians to have more countries accept the Genocide recognition and spread all over the world about the Wilson Arbitration and the legality of it. And you'll continue to have the Diasporan Armenians pouring their monies into RA. If you sign the protocols and turkey will eventually take over, I don't expect any Diasporan Armenian to keep on pouring their monies into a land that it wouldn't be much of Armenian land sooner than you think.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

How the hell is Serj going to stand up to the whole world?

With winning the hearts, the minds and the solidarity and devotion of the Armenian people worldwide.

Need i remind you that our only gueranteer of our security,Russia, wants him to sign this to?

Yes, because of geopolitical shifts between US and Russia, the former believes this will also be of benefit in terms of energy supplies and routes.

It is pretty funny when you choose to ignore what the turcks are saying on every other occasion yet this one you choose now to display.

I am not quite clear what you mean here? What have I ignored? I have been following this process since at least 2001, when the State Department and CFR put together the 'Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission.' Same brokers back then, however, as former Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian noted, it was flatly rejected by the Armenian government because it was clearly in favor of the Turks. The terms in the protocols that we have now are even worst as they pose a clear and present danger to the very statehood of Armenia.

I dont know about you but i dont need Ara Papian to tell me that western armenia should legally be oursa , i know it should be already and so does everyone else.

Therein lies your ignorance, because 'wishing' is not how international laws, treaties and policies are made. The international system operates by treaties and laws, once again read what the Turks are saying and what they are after through these protocols.

Your crazy if you think a man who put his life on the line during a bloody war is going to sell out that same country for political issues.

He has never been on the frontline and has never fired a single shot. How he ended up in the NKR Defense Committee, you can read in the memoires of many freedom fighters who actually did fight on the frontlines and many giving their lives, including many heroic commanders who were killed as a 'challenge' to this very so-called 'Defense Committee.' I have zero respect for someone who likes to gamble, and no I don't mean his gambling in Monte Carlo, but his gambling with the future of the Armenian people.

Your argument is swiss cheese its choked full of holes. Documents and treaties mean nothing, zero, zilch, nada...without power to back them up.

Incorrect, you need both. We won in Artsakh, but we need a treaty a legal binding international document [like what the Turks are doing now with the protocols] in order to secure and complete that victory on the diplomatic and international arena.

This document is being signed because all parties involved, including Armenia and Russia have much to gain from it.

Russia perhaps (one can argue about this one also in terms of long term). However, Armenia gives up its most vital and important national security asset which believe it or not is the Armenian Cause. Armenians give up the fight by signing a legal, internationally binding document that states that Armenians have no claims towards Republic of Turkey. This includes property and land worth trillions of dollars...not to mention that they are in fact to virtually every single Armenian priceless...since this land is our historic and sacred homeland that contains the relics of our ancestors, even as ruins they are, as I said priceless, like Ararat, Ani or Van.

Non of the other documents you mention can be signed without a successful war against turckey and the world is not willing to go to war with turcks yet. If Armenias leaders thought like you there would not be a Armenia today. Armenia needs to survive and build its strength and who knows one day it may have the oppertunity to get what it deserves in every way.

Turkish leaders like Erdogan and Gul are now openly boasting about bringing back the 'glories' of the Ottoman Empire. They are publishing maps for their school children which does not include even one single square kilometer of Armenia...it is all (including the few percent we have left over of historic Armenia) is Turkey.

http://news.am/en/news/5484.html

Read the statements of the Turkic presidents during the meeting that took place in Nakhichevan, they said that they will do their utmost to have a land link that connects all Turkic nations together.

[Davo88]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I guess Gul and Erdogan are too busy with each other to think about Kim Kardashian. (not that it's a bad thing)

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Couple of Grey Wolfs were telling me the other day that they would give us Mt Ararat if we would give them Kim Kardashian. No Joke.

That's a great deal! If only gul and erdogan felt the same...

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You are welcomed Catharsis jan, it's just that it is overwhelmingly sad that the turks' Lausanne Treaty that was not even legit, now thanks to our government in RA, namely Serje he'll be signing away any hope that we could have had of owning again at least parts of Western Armenia. The Wilson Arbitration that was completely legitimate, this guy Serje is forever signing it off and for what? To stay good with the US and Russia. This is a complete historical blunder on our part. I simply cannot believe it.

Anoush jan, let me ask you a rhetorical question. You have two options and can only pick one. The first is Armenia doesn't sign any documents with turkey and pursues the legal route of getting Western Armenia back. Second is Armenia signs the protocols and pursues the same goal as above, economically. Note that in both cases Armenia is taking a chance, it may or may not work out in Armenia's favor in either case. Now, which option would you pick and why?

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Starting Saturday, Armenia can effectively remove the picture of Ararat from the զինանշան because judging by what happen on Saturday it is never going to be ours.

Couple of Grey Wolfs were telling me the other day that they would give us Mt Ararat if we would give them Kim Kardashian. No Joke.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Thank you Anoush likewise. We will be needing much of this thing that we talk about a lot but always seemingly never get to - Armenian Unity - in order to overcome the calamities that we will be facing in the coming weeks and months.

You are welcomed Catharsis jan, it's just that it is overwhelmingly sad that the turks' Lausanne Treaty that was not even legit, now thanks to our government in RA, namely Serje he'll be signing away any hope that we could have had of owning again at least parts of Western Armenia. The Wilson Arbitration that was completely legitimate, this guy Serje is forever signing it off and for what? To stay good with the US and Russia. This is a complete historical blunder on our part. I simply cannot believe it.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

How the hell is Serj going to stand up to the whole world? Need i remind you that our only gueranteer of our security,Russia, wants him to sign this to? It is pretty funny when you choose to ignore what the turcks are saying on every other occasion yet this one you choose now to display. I dont know about you but i dont need Ara Papian to tell me that western armenia should legally be ours , i know it should be already and so does everyone else. Your crazy if you think a man who put his life on the line during a bloody war is going to sell out that same country for political issues. Your argument is swiss cheese its choked full of holes. Documents and treaties mean nothing, zero, zilch, nada... without power to back them up. This document is being signed because all parties involved, including Armenia and Russia have much to gain from it. Non of the other documents you mention can be signed without a successful war against turckey and the world is not willing to go to war with turcks yet. If Armenias leaders thought like you there would not be a Armenia today. Armenia needs to survive and build its strength and who knows one day it may have the oppertunity to get what it deserves in every way.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Hi Catharsis good to have met you. What do you expect from Serj Sarksyan, he was in the ranks of communists previously. What do you expect from a bloody communist? Selling out his country, nothing better from that bloody traitor.

Thank you Anoush likewise. We will be needing much of this thing that we talk about a lot but always seemingly never get to - Armenian Unity - in order to overcome the calamities that we will be facing in the coming weeks and months.