Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Though the correct syntax may be "Intch es anum" - not "Intches anum," if one should be grammatically correct; the "degenerate" interrogative form is relatively common in languages, when spoken.

Iharke, the correct syntax should be "inch es anum?", and this is uniquely the written form of the verbs. But, as a rule, verbs must be pronounced attached (inches anum?) when spoken or when an article, a text (or anything) is being read.

Pronunciation rules and spelling rules are different; according to your reasoning, it should be "Il estallé" instead of "Il est allé." I'm afraid that it makes no sense.
Regardless of pronunciation, words are separated when spelled; it's a basic rule.

Using temporal adverbs or "paraphrasing" - what I usually do - is not a solution, but only a workaround that works sometimes; in fact
1. Both "I am exercising" - for instance, as a recurrent activity - and "I am exercising, now" are valid and have different meanings and a temporal adverb is already used in the latter
2. "I swim, now" - i.e. I did not in the past, but I do now - does not mean "I am swimming;" using temporal adverbs when translating would confuse the two

Yes, unfortunately it just works sometimes and mainly in the present continuous tense with certain verbs. The progressive meaning is mainly indicated by the context in the Eastern dialect.
As for what Karo said; "Yes gnum em" can mean "I am going" as well as "I go" and the "-um" in "gnum" cannot indicate the continuous tense; as it's the same in the present simple.( It's the infinitif "gnal" which has been tranformed into "gnum" in conjugation.)

From the above, I can simply conclude that the grammar of Eastern Armenian does not provide a syntax to express the continuous form. It is a serious shortcoming.

I wonder how it is handled in some little known and spoken dialects such as the ones spoken in the region of Kessab, Syria and Mussa Dagh - I'm not sure, but I think that they are are related????

There are many such examples and some are real subtle and/or complicated. Furthermore, It becomes more complicated and subtle when the action happens - or is happening - in the past or the future.

For the future continuous, again we do have problems ( as you said). Karoaper said; I will be going= Yes gnalu em, but again it does not work with quite a lot of verbs, and we tend to use more, the future simple instead.

Apparently, the future continuous form does not exist in French either.( As there are only two main future tenses.)

As I have pointed out in an earlier post, the French has the same problem as the Armenian - not only in the future tense.

I have a certain "bias" against "gor" and I do a lot of effort to avoid using it; however, I can't deny that it's existence is legitimate and reflects a serious shortcoming of the Armenian language - that was solved in spoken Western Armenian with the usage of "gor." Armenian grammarians and linguists, instead of criticizing and snubbing the usage of "gor," should maybe work on a solution; as they are responsible for the situation.

It might not be a big issue for us but it'd definitely be an impediment for our translators.

The lack of a simple syntax to express the continuous action/activity/...is a serious shortcoming - not only for translators; the wide adoption of "gor" reflects the importance? I still think that Armenian linguists and grammarians are responsible for the situation and, obviously, they did not do a good job.

A simple solution - as it is in French - may be found.

Etre en train de...?? Again it is not a seperate tense as in English, it's more like a made-up formula. And at times, the simple future is used instead.
I was a bit underestimating English ( compared to some other languages) but its grammar seems pretty subtle, detailed and complete, at least when it comes to verb tenses.

It was never suggested that the French had a separate tense, at the contrary; in fact, I have said in an earlier post

1. "Gor" is used to fill a shortcoming of the Armenian language where the continuous forms of verb tenses do not exist - i.e. I am going, I was going etc. By the way, other languages - i.e. the French - lack the continuous form.

And "être en train de"" is a simple solution: it is applied in a uniform way in all tenses. By the way, it has a similar pattern to the English syntax.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Yeah, we indeed do have the same form for present continuous and the present indefinite.

From the above, I can simply conclude that the grammar of Eastern Armenian does not provide a syntax to express the continuous form.

I think that's the only confusion though. The situation with other continuous forms is unambiguous. I'd say that since we have the past continuous and the future continuous, as I had mentioned in the previous post, the form "-um em" is primarily for the present continuous tense.

If that is the case, why don't you show us how the grammar of Eastern Armenian allows to syntactically distinguish the continuous form from the non-continuous in the other tenses?
Apparently, Armenian, Eastern or not, does not allow it.

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

"Yes gnum em" can mean "I am going" as well as "I go" and the "-um" in "gnum" cannot indicate the continuous tense; as it's the same in the present simple.

Lucin jan, I disagree.

Գնում եմ = I am going

Կ'գնամ = I go

Կ'երթամ = I go

Գնալու եմ = I will be going

Պիտի գնամ = I will go

Գնացի = I went

Գնացելեյի = I had gone

Եվայլն...

Նշում: Բայեր - երրթալ և գնալ - նույն նշանակութիւնն ունեն:

Karoaper said; I will be going= Yes gnalu em, but again it does not work with quite a lot of verbs, and we tend to use more, the future simple instead.

Խփելու եմ...

Վազելու եմ...

ՈՒտելու եմ...

Հանելու եմ...

What verbs does it not work with? I can't think of any.

It might not be a big issue for us but it'd definitely be an impediment for our translators.

I don't understand. What's the big issue? What can be an impediment for our translators? In my opinion, there is not a language, especially an Indo-European one, that can't be translated to near perfection by the usage of Armenian. As a matter of fact, the Armenian language can not be done justice by translating it into English. Have you read some of the translations of Armenian poetry into English by English linguists? They are awful. And have you read Shakespeare's works translated into Armenian? They are flawless. Regardless of its current size, English is a very poor language in many ways, if it can even be called a language.

Nonetheless, I don't think anyone of us here are truly proficient enough in the Armenian language to make definitive claims about its nature one way or another. Sadly, Armenian speakers, that is speakers of true Armenian, are a minority within our nation. Overwhelming majority of Armenians today, including myself, speak a form of Armenbonics.

The purest form of Armenian that can be heard today is within some of the Armenian news reports that are broadcast from the Armenian Republic. And I bet a vast majority of us Armenian speakers in the Diaspora will not understand much of what is being spoken.

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

OK let's see.

Simple future - կխանգարեմ, կգնամ, կխոսեմ, կնվագեմ
Future cont - խանգարելու եմ, գնալու եմ, խոսելու եմ, նվագելու եմ

Simple past - խանգարեցի, գնացի, խոսեցի, նվագեցի
Past cont - խանգարում էի, գնում էի, խոսում էի, նվագում էի

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

OK let's see.

Thanks, but, as shown below, not even close???? Please check this simple introduction to Armenian Verbs

Simple future - կխանգարեմ, կգնամ, կխոսեմ, կնվագեմ

This is the conditional, not the future.

Future cont - խանգարելու եմ, գնալու եմ, խոսելու եմ, նվագելու եմ

This is the simple future, not the continuous form of it.

Simple past - խանգարեցի, գնացի, խոսեցի, նվագեցի

This is the preterite or simple past.

Past cont - խանգարում էի, գնում էի, խոսում էի, նվագում էի

This is the Imperfect, not the continuous form of the past.


Good Night!

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Siamanto, I would only consider Wiki a good source of grammar if the authors were actually experts on Armenian language.

But still, from the Wiki, the example for the Imperfect is:
-- Nrank' im girk'ә kardum ēin (They were reading/would read my book)

"They were reading" seems like a past continuous to me.

According to Wiki, Eastern Armenian does not use the k' prefix. I can tell you that that is wrong. As a practitioner of Eastern, the k' prefix is used to denote the simple future tense as in "myus tari Hayastanum ksksven @ntrutiunner@" (Elections will start in Armenia next year).

In fact, this is how I see the use of the two endings "um/e(a)lu" with the present/past forms of the "to be" verb, "em/ei". Example verb "gnal".

-gnum em: As mentioned this is used for both the present continuous, as "Yes zrucumem AC forumum" (I'm chatting on AC forum), and in simple present "Yes aprum em Americaum" (I live in US).

-gnum ei: This is "I was going", as in "Erek poghocov kaylum ei u @nenc mi hat nanar tesa" (I was walking on the street ...) --- past continious.

-gnalu em: This is "I will be going" or "I am going to go", as in "Vagh@ yerkelu em @nkerochs harsanikin" (tomorrow I will be singing ...) --- future continuous

-gnalu ei: This one is "I was going to go", as on "ancial tari gnalu ei Hayastan baic pdi mikich spasei" --- I don't know what you'd call this one

There is also as Armenian suggested the

-gnacel em --- "I have gone", which is the perfect present tense, as in "Arten tomss arrel em" (I have already bought the ticket)

-gnacel ei --- "Minchev for @nkers ekav, menk arten durs eink gnacel" (By the time he came, we had already left") --- past perfect

Anyways, I'm far far from any sort of expert (unfortunately), but to my unpracticed (unfortunately) ears this is how it is.

[Armenian]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Եղբայր, գիտե՞ս որ ցեխին քար ես քցում:

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Ապեր, գիտե՞ս որ ցեխին քար ես քցում:

Ապեր, այդ պատճառով էլ փորցում եմ վիճաբանությունները հաճելի պահել: Թե չե իրոք ցեխը շատ հեշտ կտարածվի (Շիամանթո նկատի «կտարածվի», վոչ թե «տարածվելու է» ): Դե տեսնենք էլի:

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Pronunciation rules and spelling rules are different; according to your reasoning, it should be "Il estallé" instead of "Il est allé." I'm afraid that it makes no sense.
Regardless of pronunciation, words are separated when spelled; it's a basic rule.

We write ի՞նչ ես անում but the phonetic is [ ինչես անում], so is the pronunciation. It is one of the rules of Armenian language.( I'm not talking about the spelling)

Գրում եմ [Գրումեմ]
Կարդում եմ [Կարդումեմ]
Քնած էի [Քնածէի]

See what I mean?

The ''eastern dialect'' has the correct pronouncing and the ''western dialect'' the correct spelling.

Wrong. Parskahays 'have' both; the correct pronouncing and the Mashtotsian spelling.

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Խփելու եմ...

Վազելու եմ...

ՈՒտելու եմ...

Հանելու եմ...

What verbs does it not work with? I can't think of any.

Lucin jan, you mentioned that the future continuous doesn't work with many verbs. I just woke up but I can't think of one. Can't you just add the "-elu em" to any verb?

Of course, we can use "-elu em" for every single verb but sometimes it just doesn't make perfect sense ( at least to me) when you try to put it ( -elu em) into a context:
I will be studying when you come.= Yerp vor gas, sovorelu em?? "sovorelu em" in itself sounds fine but in the context...
I will be eating lunch when you arrive. = Yerp vor hasnes, jashelu em??
I will be sleeping when you come. = Yerp vor gas, knelu em.
How do these sentences(in Armenian) sound to your ears?

(I said that since I feel (I might be wrong) sometimes there is little or no difference between the future continuous ( gnalu em) and the simple future ( k'gnam) especially when the future event will occur at an indefinite time in the future.)

I don't understand. What's the big issue? What can be an impediment for our translators? In my opinion, there is not a language, especially an Indo-European one, that can't be translated to near perfection by the usage of Armenian. As a matter of fact, the Armenian language can not be done justice by translating it into English. Have you read some of the translations of Armenian poetry into English by English linguists? They are awful. And have you read Shakespeare's works translated into Armenian? They are flawless. Regardless of its current size, English is a very poor language in many ways, if it can even be called a language.

(The fact that some tenses in Armenian are the same such as present simple and present continuous however it can be resolved within the context. Some other languages such as French have similar "shortcomings".)
No doubt in the perfection of our unique, beautiful language and alphabet in many regards;
Modern Armenian alphabet with its 38 unique and individual signs is closest to perfection when it comes to representing human's speech. Latin ( its alphabet) is probably the most widespread of all but it definitely lacks the ability to meet speech habits and sounds of different nationalities while the Armenian alphabet can be adapted to any human speech without the use of subsidiary characters, marks, dots,etc.
In reality, Armenian is the only living language with absolute symbol for sound-alphabet. ( Not according to me)

Nonetheless, I don't think anyone of us here are truly proficient enough in the Armenian language to make definitive claims about its nature one way or another. Sadly, Armenian speakers, that is speakers of true Armenian, are a minority within our nation. Overwhelming majority of Armenians today, including myself, speak a form of Armenbonics.

God knows where it's heading. It's getting worse day by day in the Diaspora.
The տափակ, գիւղացի Armenian some Diasporans speak is just sickening...