Ataturks statue in Israel

[Steph]

I reported this post. And I will not write a single word more in this forum, until a harsh action (matching the highly racist, inhuman content of the post) is taken by the moderators. If no action is taken, I'll leave this forum not to return. One ape less one ape more, what will it differ?

may, if you're an ape, I'm an ape, we're all apes.
You write a lot of sense and a lot I don't agree with, that's what this forums about.
Stay and continue posting please.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Joseph,

I didn't see Vahe's post, but I saw it in May's quote of his post. If Vahe said that, then he should be severely reprimanded and should have his membership suspended. If a Turk said something like Mesrop Mashtots was an ape, that would be the end of his/her forum privileges, wouldn't it? So, we should apply equal justice. Also, we are all finally having good conversations here, and I hope it doesn't get destroyed because of stupid and offensive comments.

Vahe, why did you have to say something like that? Never mind, don't try to justify it. Just please immediately offer a sincere apology, and even then you should still be banned for a few days, but then you should be allowed back again if you offer a sincere apology. That's my recommendation.

GUYS I DO NOT BELIVE!!! MY POST WAS EDITED FOR OFFENDING ATATURK!!!!

Do you really compare a war criminal who has founded a most oppressive and fascist state, who is responsible for Smyrna ( Massacre of Greeks) and all genocidal policies of modern turkish state, so do you compare him with a person who invented Armenian Alphabet?

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

OK I see I got some explanation to do:
My comment was edited so I will have to quote myself:

"You see there is a little difference: for you- Turks evolution ended when ape becomes a Turk (in its highest entity as ataturk LOL)
For Armenians the evolution is never ended. as you know the strongest species are the one who survive... We have survived as a nation and culture for 4000 years and we survived even Turkish "fair treatment", and will survive always... you see now what happened during the evolution?"

If you talk to an ordinary Turk he would say that Turkish History begins with independents war, Mustafa Kemal and foundation of Turkish republic. Everything what happened before that has no relevance to Turks. Conclusion: for Turks ther was an evolution jump from ape to Ataturk. What is racist in this logical statement?
About nationalism; it all depends what you understand under it; but the cult of personality of Kemal and his theory (Kemalo-Nazism) are worst then any racist and nationalist theories all together. So you call me racist and want me to be banned for offending Kemal?
I am not against a dialog with Turks, but it doesn’t mean I must be sweat to them and instead of telling them what I think to tell them what they want to hear…
I will defend my right of expressing freely and will not tolerate any limitation or censorship in Turkish-Zimbabwean style…

[Sako]

Few things to clear first for Steph: I did not make out a war story about number of armies, great powers meant the big actors of the time. I just wanted to emphasize that winning a war in poor conditions do not make anyone cleverer, as Saco somewhat implied in his post. Still I believe in the honor of people's (strip the Turkish identity of the people if that makes everyone feel better) resistance to the imperial actors, regardless of how weak the big forces were.

May, this is exactly what I’m saying you don’t get. Some countries have it better then others, do you deny this? There have been so many countries that got into wars but some survived while the others didn’t! Now, the surviving country; was it smarter or simply got lucky? This is my point. What differentiates countries from one another? What differentiates PEOPLE from one another? This may be close to fascism (According to you) but you shouldn’t only judge a phrase by its words but also by its speaker. Another person could say the same thing I said in a fascist way but I didn’t. And trust me, if you read what I said again, you’ll see what I mean. Fascism is a different and harsh topic.

For you Saco, while talking so much of your nation and country, how it is superior (avoiding the word "superior" by saying "comparison" is very much like the tactics used while ignoring Armenian Genocide), your claim of "sometimes not even feeling Armenian" is very much contradictory.

May, when I said this I meant that I’ve lived in many places, I have felt bad for many incidents not just the Genocide, I have seen a lot, and all this has given me the opportunity to appreciate this world more, to understand how it works a little more, to understand how the mind works, etc. It has made me understand that the boundaries we see are made personally by us. We are all the same people just talking in different languages and living in different ways. Everything I’ve done has made me appreciate life more AND also who I am and where I am from, which I am proud of. I meant that I look not only at the tip of my nose but at everything else in front of my eyes a.k.a. the world.

That being said, all nations have glorious histories as they are told by their grandparents. Actually as a part of nation-building process, some of these stories are invented, or exaggerated. I do not know of your sources but I recommend to question them (Personally I very much do). I prefer believing in none and always put the human proud that resists the oppression to my focus point.

A very Turkish reply! Listen May, what are you trying to say, what we know of the past is all lies? Of course, a few minor points can be exaggerated but they don’t make the facts any more or less true. I question my past in different ways and I don’t just listen to my grandparents, lol, to know what happened in the past like thousands of Turks out there (Not that I blame all f them). You should also remember that I don’t need to question my past as much as perhaps you do. In Turkey, the slightest move by officials is already questioned, there is no freedom, and lies are abundant. I live in a free world. I can read and understand what happened, and I don’t need to question EVERYTHING that crosses my eyes. If you take that route, you pretty much can’t prove anything at all perfectly and you don’t need to.

Yes, I envy some people, but maybe a group of people doing honorable acts but not a particular nation overall. Your way of telling that I may be subconsciously jealous is... funny...! I do not know any other word that fits better...

May, am I talking about you? And here’s something to think about before you reply. When a nation is filled with very large groups of people, not just a couple of people, that show lot’s of prowess in almost every known field, YES, people from another nations become jealous not of those specific people alone (who they might not even know personally) but of the nation itself. I feel like I’m explaining the ABC’s of life here. Armenia right now has got so many awards that really major countries didn’t get. That’s about what 30-50 people in the last ten years alone? But because of these handful of people, so many have become jealous not of them personally but Armenia itself. We are known most of the time if not all the time by our nationality, not as individuals. If you don’t understand these simple facts, I’m wasting my time here.

But the serious thing is (this is strictly my opinion) you are wandering on the borders of fascist thoughts, regardless of you accept or deny it. I emphasized many times in my posts that fascism seeds are buried deep in the world but quick to flourish.
Yes, but we decide whether we want it to flourish or not just like a man can decide whether to take a major step forward or not. Fascism doesn’t just happen suddenly. I may go near to the Turkish border but I can’t cross it. In the same way, my words may seem fascist but I won’t allow myself to talk and think in a fascist way. I make that choice.
Pure denial does not provide any solutions. You probably made such claims many times in this forum. I am just asking you to consider on what we discussed a bit more. Being a world citizen is demanding my friend, it is not as easy as it comes out of your mouth or keyboard.

Thanks May, I’ll remember that, but nothing I said makes me less of a world citizen. And if it does, you better have good reasons because it’s easy to simply say someone else isn’t a citizen of the world, especially without knowing him personally.

Before forgetting, by "trauma" I meant the historical pain of Armenian people due to the genocide and its implications on collective memory of Armenians. No negative meaning intended.

Ok, but seriously, if you mean I hate all Turks because of the Genocide, using the word trauma to describe my pain, you have no idea what you’re talking about and I pity you.

May, I think I understand you. Ideas like "my people did this, and my people did that, and my people are better or smarter, etc." all of these may start innocent, but it's a slippery slope down to the depths of racist nationalism. It reminds me of the Russian skinheads in Moscow who have murdered dozens of Caucasian people just this year, including many Armenians and Azeris.

If I said anything in a way that was inappropriate, I apologize, but remember, no matter what slope you stand on, it doesn’t mean you’ll definitely fall down. I said what I said in a completely different way which it seems doesn’t change anything in May’s mind.

On the other hand, small nations like Armenians and Jews have little choice but to maintain some distance between themselves and everyone else, otherwise they will be consumed and disappear. This is a fact. Why do Armenians have their own strange language and alphabet and even religion? Because if we didn't, there would be no such thing as an Armenian today. Whatever customs, culture and heritage was created over the centuries would be lost, because we would have melted into our neighbors who were always more numerous. Some may feel there is no value in our customs, culture and heritage, or the customs, culture and heritage of any small nation. And if that's what they believe then they cannot understand why people like Armenians have created certain barriers like their language, alphabet and religion. But that's not my view, and that's not the view of the majority of people who call themselves Armenians.

Phantom I agree but it’s not that we talk our language and have our religion and all just to be separated from the world. It’s what makes us special, what makes us not forget who we are. America for example isn’t a country; it’s just a bunch of states slapped together. People from everywhere live there. Anyone can go there, get a green card and call him/herself a true born American without even being able to sometimes talk English properly. This is in many ways what the founding fathers had in mind when creating America. A free country, which I respect, but I don’t consider it a country. When I think of America, the words family reunion comes to mind. It’s because of all the different people that America is great, not because of its Americans. There isn’t really even such a thing. America is a toddler compared to almost all the countries out there. It’s only like 300 years old. It’s not that I disrespect America or anything though.

Also, because we are small and seemingly insignificant in this world, we have no choice but to remind ourselves of the accomplishments of our ancestors and our people. I mean, unless we're going to school in Armenia, none of us in Turkey or in the diaspora are learning anything about our history from our school teachers or from popular culture. So we grow up, at least in Turkey and the diaspora, believing we are unimportant, and nobody knows or cares anything about us. I'm sure it's different in Armenia, but keep in mind that more than half of the world's population lives outside Armenia. To compensate for this, our parents and priests and Sunday school teachers try to teach us that we are somebody, that our ancestors made contributions in this world and that we still make contributions in this world. We don't have a government of 70 million people indoctrinating us with nationalist feelings. Instead, that's what we have, our parents and priests and Sunday school teachers, and that's it. And believe me, we need it, because otherwise we would feel like xxxx. Our great-grandparents were all murdered; the people that live in the land we come from think we're scum; Russians (keep in mind 2 million of us live in Russia) look down on us and think we are inferior to them; and everywhere else, except maybe France, we are a tiny minority the majority rarely ever thinks about. So, unless someone had told me that my people aren't nobodies, that they built the grandest structures in Constantinople, that they not only invented their own unique alphabet but also gave the Turkish people their modern alphabet, that they were the most prolific builders of ancient churches and monasteries in Asia Minor, that they were the greatest merchants and traders on the silk road, that among them were the men who built such places as modern Hong Kong, if somebody doesn't tell me these things, then I would grow up thinking I'm from some people that never did anything and that isn't worth preserving.

Phantom, I think you took a wrong turn here. Armenians really have done very, very great things in history that makes us special, it’s not just our Sunday teachers that tell us that, it’s half the world (not Diaspora Armenians only, I might add). Armenia has a very powerful history and it isn’t that we simply learn about it to not feel like xxxx. We learn it to know who we are. We wouldn’t be here without our past. We uphold who we are because we feel good about it, because we remember what our ancestors before and after the Genocide did so we would be living in the modern world today, so we would even exist and not see what they did. Forgetting that is what many do thinking the past is gone, the modern times are here, etc. and they are the greatest pieces of xxxx I have ever had the pitiful chance of meeting and I disrespect people like that. I would like every person to be a patriot and respect his/her country but also the countries of the world. That’s what I am, that’s what separates me from simply being only an Armenian. Anyone that doesn’t respect or know about the past will feel like xxxx and that’s natural.

So, as a Turk growing up in Turkey, you have the benefit and privilege of complaining that being boastful of one's nationality or ethnic background is wandering on the border of fascism, because you grow up in a system of 70+ million people who are taught about all of the glories of the Turkish people. The same is true of all of these large nations, like Germany, the UK, France, and Italy. But for us small nations, especially when the majority of us aren't even growing up in our mother country, we need it just to have feeling that whatever we are is at least worth preserving. We're not learning about our "glories" so that we can grow to conquer anyone and become fascists. We're learning them just so we can hold on a little longer to who we are. And you know what, Saco is right; Armenians, even if we don't learn it every day in school like everyone else in big countries, we still have a lot in our history of which to be proud, and if we have to boast about it once in a while among ourselves just so we can maintain our heritage and not disappear, then I see nothing wrong with that.

Thank you Phantom, May was also right in many ways but also confused in many ways. I just have to point out again that our nation isn’t much the way you describe it Phantom. Our country really has LOT’S to be proud of. Many countries are appalled and show respect when thinking of Armenians. Not speaking, simply thinking. Any country, small or large would be proud. With this though comes jealousy from other countries. Turkey is your GREATEST example, Azerbaijan coming in second place. We as Armenians have enough to be proud of to stand up next to any country. What makes people so agitated is that we are such a small nation but have the force and will power of ages, enough to stand side by side with ANYONE. Now my friends, think of this as boasting, think of this as bragging my ass off, or whatever, I and many think of this as the cold and sometimes painful truth. I love my country, I love my people, I respect my ancestors for what they did for personally me and all the Armenians, always keeping their struggles in mind, and I will talk proudly about my country no matter which corner of the world I may live in. And I ask ALL to feel the same way for their own countries, judging all others, including themselves with an equal eye.

Think what you will. I live in Armenia and I love Armenia and everything about it regardless of the good and bad.

Ankakh après MISHT Hayastan. I rest my case.

[Sako]

Vahe Jan, you are right I guess in certain ways but still, let's keep our feelings a bit to ourselves at times, that means me too, lol.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

You've been on this forum for a month and have already started ordering people around? Please.

Edoman, Vahe's "opinion" is clearly racist.

may, please continue posting and remember, this forum comes with an ignore feature.

Believe me I have been around much longer than you are....
What is exactly racist in my post? Define racism.

[chinchilla]

Believe me I have been around much longer than you are....
What is exactly racist in my post? Define racism.

I don't believe that.

If you have to have it defined and pointed out for you, you're beyond help.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

I don't believe that.

If you have to have it defined and pointed out for you, you're beyond help.

It is your personal business to believe me or not.
I didn’t ask for help. You are just accusing me in some thing that you are not even able to define. btw are you a turk?

[Sako]

Gentleman, relax please. I already said what would be right to do Vahe Jan. Ataturk might deserve what you said, I'm not giving away my opinion though. Let's help Joseph out here and keep things under control. We'll help ourselves that way too. Moving on.

[Alexandros]

It is your personal business to believe me or not.
I didn’t ask for help. You are just accusing me in some thing that you are not even able to define. btw are you a turk?

As far as I know, chinchilla is Armenian.