Religion and Atheism

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Congratulations, you are officially an intellectual! Curious, why have you then put proudly Vartan Mamikonian as your avatar?

Because I see Vartan for what he really was, a general fighting to get more power and grow his own strength and that of his allies. Or do you really believe the myths that are being told today?

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I didn't say you are ignorant. But according to what you said, it was clear you hadn't grasped the point.

I don't see a contradiction... If anything it's appropriate because he fought against coercion and the forced acceptance of another's religion.
But, I'm sure Karo can speak for himself.

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

What is wrong with being an atheist?

That piece of philosophy to me seems as an attempt to find a link that in my opinion doesn't exist in religion. they find a minor link but choose to ignore everything else in the religion.
How can people follow a book that basics of the universe wrong, aka sun turning around the earth?

So because a book states one wrong thing you should ignore everything else? The Bible and other holy texts are meant as guidelines and as the first step toward knowing the divine. I for one am not a fundamentalist when it comes to the Bible or Christianity in general. But I see wisdom when I read a number of passages in the Bible, and whether it is truly the word of God or not, the ideas that are conveyed to me are good for my mind and my soul.


It's not an attempt, it does link the major ideas of the world religions. Does it seem like coincidence to you that the majority of religions have basic tenants, such as do not kill, or defining the steps to living a virtuous life? People's understanding of modern religions is quite poor and this is due not only to the organizing religious bodies but also the fact that most people are too lazy to dig deeper into the subject. A little factoid is that ancient Greeks, the learned ones among them, such as Plato, did not actually believe in the Greeks gods the way the common people did. Plato and others like him were initiates of esoteric groups, what is nowadays called Mystery Groups. Gurdjieff also said you could call his teachings a form of esoteric Christianty, but he correctly said that most people's definition of Christianity and understanding of it were lacking and not in line with what the ancient thoughts, and according to his understanding, this bastardized religions, not just Christianity. I am no expert on mysticism, I have been reading bits and pieces of it for sometime now, but I encourage anyone who really wants to dig into the matters and the heart of religions to find out about the mystical/esoteric aspects of each religion.

[Lucin]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I am no history expert but only Turks like to claim there were no Armenians loooooong before Christianity showed up We have had a very proud and distinguished culture and identity even from the sun-worshiping days.

I see your point, your stance is clear. But Karo is emanating contradictions...

I don't see a contradiction... If anything it's appropriate because he fought against coercion and the forced acceptance of another's religion.

All he did was in the name of the Christian faith..

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

The larger point is that when a scientific instrument fails, or the police have the power to make it fail, you have very little control over the outcome unless you can prove without a doubt that you didn't have alcohol that night. In most cases people plead guilty even if they are innocent because they have no way to prove it unless they have verifiable evidence that the machine was faulty or they have witness accounts. Either way, the entire trial can cost tens of thousands just because of blind faith in science.

How many times has something like that happened?(source) Most of the time they are so wasted and still claiming that they didn't drink. The very minuscule portion of times that it happens can statistically be ignored.

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

The larger point is that when a scientific instrument fails, or the police have the power to make it fail, you have very little control over the outcome unless you can prove without a doubt that you didn't have alcohol that night. In most cases people plead guilty even if they are innocent because they have no way to prove it unless they have verifiable evidence that the machine was faulty or they have witness accounts. Either way, the entire trial can cost tens of thousands just because of blind faith in science.

It is a product of science and it can be used in science, but any use of it isn't automatically science. How that tool is used or abused isn't science. What the legal system does is not science nor is law enforcement (forensics excluded).

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

There being universal religion is not evidence of a creator. Yes, people have believed in deities for a looooong time, but that doesn't mean that one exists. One does not follow logically from the other. To say that some entity created the universe is an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (but really... I'll settle for any amount of evidence). Where's the evidence of a creator?

Are you really going to ask me to prove the existence of God when we all know that His existence can neither be proven or disproven. We have free will and all can choose to believe in our Creator or not. And I do not know on what basis God will judge us but all I can say is learn the lessons taught by holy books and whether you choose to believe in the Creator or not is up to you. Just do not become one of those militant atheists otherwise you will only radicalize the opposition.

You know what else makes extraordinary claims, the Big Bang theory and evolution. More on this in a following post. Stay tuned.

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Now add the historical context and then you will come to the truth. The emperors that came after Constantine had more power than the ones that came before. Until Charlemagne there was only one emperor in the whole world and he spoke with the voice of god.

Christians didn't do no such thing most of the time the people breaking down the power were not the Christians but everybody but the Christians. Some of these Emperors ruled until WW1 in one form or another.

According to Gibbons Christianity was one of the main reasons for the decline and fall of the Roman Empire (West). Also, what do you mean there were no emperors besides Charlemagne and the Byzantine emperor? The Chinese, and Persians had emperors at the same time.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

How many times has something like that happened?(source) Most of the time they are so wasted and still claiming that they didn't drink. The very minuscule portion of times that it happens can statistically be ignored.

You'd be surprised just how crooked or just negligent the police and the law system is on the inside. If it happens to you and you're the minuscule portion, I'm sure you'd be pretty pissed off especially if you couldn't come up with 20-30 thousand for lawyer fees.

[Sip]

Re: Religion and Atheism

All he did was in the name of the Christian faith..

Ah now I see what the discussion is about.

Actually, Vartan Mamikonian was kind of an inspiring figure as I was growing up. This was during my early school years in Iran and I clearly remember thinking how clever this guy was compared to all the other mythic heroes I had come to know (maybe this is how our teachers presented it to us ... I am not too clear on all the details ... just vague impressions). Most other heroes would stick to their principles to the last second of death. This guy did a flip flop on his religion as it suited him. Now I am sure my childish understanding of the true complex history was very limited but it still made a huge impression on me growing up.