Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Armenian Diaspora protests in Russia are the most passive and Turk pleasing among all showed by Armenian TV today April 24, 2011, although it is one of the biggest in the world. Note please that the small protest/march in Moscow was conducted on April 23, 2011

[Tigranakert]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Armenian Diaspora protests in Russia are the most passive and Turk pleasing among all showed by Armenian TV today April 24, 2011, although it is one of the biggest in the world. Note please that the small protest/march in Moscow was conducted on April 23, 2011

First of all, their country has recognized the Armenian genocide, unlike America, and unlike most of the other countries in the world, Russian presidents have visited the Armenian Genocide Memorial dozens of times.

Second, as they are the most adult, realistic and developed Diaspora worldwide, they realize, in contrary to Armenians in America, that visiting Armenia, investing huge sums of money in Armenia and Artsakh, investing in pro-Armenian organizations whose goal is not only to beg for genocide recognition, and creating a wealthy, influential group of Armenians who work together (unlike Armenians in America, who are fighting for years for a simple genocide museum in Washington), is much more effective.

It shows the sickness of you that you dare to say that because their demonstration is not as "large" as the only-once-a-year-Armenians in America, they are the most Turk pleasing. Actually, I know the Turks fear the Russian-Armenians the most.

It just shows your deeply rooted anti-Russianess, doing your best to try to twist a story so that you can say something negative about Russia.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Russian, Turkish moves increase Armenian isolation

Signs of shifting balances in the Caucasus have been sending alarming signals to Armenia, strengthening its feeling of isolation as the result of new moves by key regional players Russia, Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Russia has recently made efforts to improve its relations with Azerbaijan, while Turkey has sought to mend fences between Baku and Tehran over Iranian-Armenian relations, an irritant for Azerbaijan.

Iran provides an important economic outlet for Armenia, which suffers from the blockade by Turkey and Azerbaijan. The Islamic Republic supports its Christian neighbor politically as it feels its large Azerbaijani minority makes it vulnerable in relation to Baku. Ethnic Azerbaijanis are the largest minority in Iran, comprising about a quarter of the population.

Foreign ministers of Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran met two weeks ago in the northwestern Iranian city of Urmia to try to improve relations.

Efforts by Russia, another country with close relations with Armenia, to improve its ties with Azerbaijan have not gone unnoticed in Ankara, where Turkish diplomats note that the war in Georgia in 2008 has affected Moscow’s overall policies in the Caucasus. Russia wants to improve its relations with Azerbaijan in order to further encircle Georgia, and to create another avenue for reaching out to Iran, the diplomats said. A recent agreement signed between Russia, Azerbaijan and Iran is seen as another indicator of Moscow’s new policies.

The three countries agreed in February to form a joint venture that will be responsible for constructing a 350-kilometer railroad line from Qazvin, northwest of Tehran, to Rasht and the Caspian Sea port of Astara in Azerbaijan. The new line will drastically reduce the distance by rail between Tehran and Baku, while creating a much shorter route between Russia and Iranian ports.

Russia has meanwhile been equally active in trying to find a solution to the ongoing Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict over the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region, Turkish sources told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review. “Not all the details are shared with us. But we understand that Russian diplomacy has brought some creative ideas to overcome the deadlock,” one source said.

Trilateral meeting held in Turkish

When Azerbaijani Foreign Minister Elmar Memmedyarov started to address his Turkish and Iranian counterparts in English at their first trilateral meeting, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu immediately interrupted, asking him to speak in his native language.

Turks can understand the Azeri dialect, which is believed to be spoken as a first language by about 20 percent of the Iranian population. When Memmedyarov started to speak in his native language, all participants with the exception of two people from the Iranian delegation put aside their headphones for simultaneous translation.

The meeting two weeks ago was held in the Iranian city of Urmia, which is also the capital of the West Azerbaijan Province.

“The fact that the trilateral meeting took place in Urmia has a very symbolic importance,” a Turkish official told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review.

Turkey wanted to convey to Iran the message that its Azerbaijani minority is not a liability but an asset in its relations with Baku.

Ankara also wanted to send the message to both Baku and Tel Aviv that Turkish-Azerbaijani strategic relations cannot be replaced with Israeli-Azerbaijani ones. The strain in Turkish-Azerbaijani ties due to Ankara’s effort to normalize its relations with Yerevan has resulted in improved cooperation between Tel Aviv and Baku.

Despite the importance of these symbolic messages, the Turkish government would like to see concrete projects materialize between the three countries.

“An economic committee will be set up for the development of economic and trade relations through joint ventures, modernization of border gates and facilitation of customs and application of preferential trade between Turkey, Iran and Azerbaijan,” read the joint communique released following the meeting.

The U.N. sanctions applied against Iran due to its controversial nuclear program will, however, undoubtedly place serious constraints on trilateral economic cooperation.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...ion-2011-04-25

[Persopolis]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I'm going to teach you guys how to spot some types of Turkish propaganda.

-Blue = important parts of the article;
- Red = Key propaganda words;
- Green in Brackets "[...]" = my comments.

Russian, Turkish moves increase Armenian isolation

Signs of shifting balances in the Caucasus have been sending alarming signals to Armenia, strengthening its feeling of isolation as the result of new moves by key regional players Russia, Turkey and Azerbaijan.

Russia has recently made efforts to improve its relations with Azerbaijan, while Turkey has sought to mend fences between Baku and Tehran over Iranian-Armenian relations, an irritant for Azerbaijan. [Russia + Azerbaijan = improved relations; Turkey mediates between Iran + Azerbaijan to try to improve relations (obviously to try to injure Armenia), which is why Armenia needs to stay extremely positive with Iran.]

Iran provides an important economic outlet for Armenia, which suffers from the blockade by Turkey and Azerbaijan. The Islamic Republic supports its Christian neighbor politically as it feels its large Azerbaijani minority makes it vulnerable in relation to Baku. Ethnic Azerbaijanis are the largest minority in Iran, comprising about a quarter of the population.

Foreign ministers of Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran met two weeks ago in the northwestern Iranian city of Urmia to try to improve relations.

Efforts by Russia, another country with close relations with Armenia, to improve its ties with Azerbaijan have not gone unnoticed in Ankara, where Turkish diplomats note that the war in Georgia in 2008 has affected Moscow’s overall policies in the Caucasus. Russia wants to improve its relations with Azerbaijan in order to further encircle Georgia, and to create another avenue for reaching out to Iran, the diplomats said. A recent agreement signed between Russia, Azerbaijan and Iran is seen as another indicator of Moscow’s new policies. [Remember earlier I told everyone that Turkey-&-Friends will compete with Russia for Iran's support -- either Turkey will win or Russia will win, but Iran will definitely win.]

The three countries agreed in February to form a joint venture that will be responsible for constructing a 350-kilometer railroad line from Qazvin, northwest of Tehran, to Rasht and the Caspian Sea port of Astara in Azerbaijan. The new line will drastically reduce the distance by rail between Tehran and Baku, while creating a much shorter route between Russia and Iranian ports. [This is an attempt to pull Russia and Iran on the side of Azerbaijan, leaving Armenia alone.]

Russia has meanwhile been equally active in trying to find a solution to the ongoing Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict over the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region, .... [ I don't believe this - I think more conflict = more time for Russia to deal with weakened Caucuses states that it can better manipulate & control.] “Not all the details are shared with us. But we understand that Russian diplomacy has brought some creative ideas to overcome the deadlock,” one source said.

Trilateral meeting held in Turkish

When Azerbaijani Foreign Minister Elmar Memmedyarov started to address his Turkish and Iranian counterparts in English at their first trilateral meeting, Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu immediately interrupted, asking him to speak in his native language.

Turks can understand the Azeri dialect, which is believed to be spoken as a first language by about 20 percent of the Iranian population. [This is a lie - they want to overstate the figure and it is not the "first language."] When Memmedyarov started to speak in his native language, all participants with the exception of two people from the Iranian delegation put aside their headphones for simultaneous translation.

The meeting two weeks ago was held in the Iranian city of Urmia, which is also the capital of the West Azerbaijan Province.

“The fact that the trilateral meeting took place in Urmia has a very symbolic importance,” a Turkish official told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review.

Turkey wanted to convey to Iran the message that its Azerbaijani minority is not a liability but an asset in its relations with Baku. ["Azerbaijani Minority" = major propaganda -- see below.]

Ankara also wanted to send the message to both Baku and Tel Aviv that Turkish-Azerbaijani strategic relations cannot be replaced with Israeli-Azerbaijani ones. [I believe that this is a lie -- I believe that Turkey and Israel are already working with Baku and have been for at least a decade.] The strain in Turkish-Azerbaijani ties due to Ankara’s effort to normalize its relations with Yerevan has resulted in improved cooperation between Tel Aviv and Baku.

Despite the importance of these symbolic messages, the Turkish government would like to see concrete projects materialize between the three countries.

“An economic committee will be set up for the development of economic and trade relations through joint ventures, modernization of border gates and facilitation of customs and application of preferential trade between Turkey, Iran and Azerbaijan,” read the joint communique released following the meeting.

The U.N. sanctions applied against Iran due to its controversial nuclear program will, however, undoubtedly place serious constraints on trilateral economic cooperation.


http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...ion-2011-04-25

Iranian Azerbaijan is a province (it's basically a Zip Code - not an ethnicity -- the article falsely uses it as an ethnicity. "Azerbaijani Minority" means nothing. It's like saying "Floridian Minory" -- it's not clear WHO in Florida you are talking about.

Iranian-Azaris are ethnic Iranians (not Turks) and one the groups that live in the province of Azerbaijan in Iran. As an historical anomaly - the North of Iran in very recent history picked up the Azeri-Turkish dialect. But learning a new language does not change your ethnicity (learn Japanese and see if you are magically transformed into an ethnic Japanese or a citizen of Japan). Iranian-Azaris for thousands of years spoke Persian (not Turkic). You need to read about the original language of Iranian-Azaris here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Azari_language Iranian-Azaris are very different from the people in the Fake Country called Republic of Azerbaijan.

In the Iranian-province of Azerbaijan there are also some infiltrators from the Fake-Azerbaijan and some members of Turkey's intelligence service that are stirring sh*t up. They want to make kids believe that they are ethnic Turks. There is a very, very small minority of ethnic Turks in Iran and they live in the Iranian province of Azerbaijan also (you see it gets complicated). What the article tries to do is to push the Pan-Turk's myth to (a) convince gullible kids that they are "Turks," (b) to make Armenia feel that its enemies are bigger, and (c) to get Armenians to lash out at the wrong people so you end up having in fact more enemies.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Russia's relations with Turkey are over the South Stream pipeline project. When you study the geo political relations in the region, you have to think of it in terms of this picture in your head.

[Persopolis]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Russia's relations with Turkey are over the South Stream pipeline project. When you study the geo political relations in the region, you have to think of it in terms of this picture in your head.

You have to factor in military basing in addition to energy. What Russia Should have done is to annex half of Eastern Georgia to Ossetia and Half to Armenia and to run a pipeline from Iran > Armenia > Ossetia > Russia. (Ossetians are Christian Iranians.) The War with Georgia would have been a perfect chance for that. It would have boxed Turkey in & provided Russia & Armenia with more energy options and income (more viability for Armenia = stronger Russia defense in the Caucuses).

My earlier comments on Russia's Long Term (50-200 year) predicament:

Russia is a strategically vulnerable state. The Moscow region has no geographic barriers to invasion. Russia needs to expand its borders to create the largest possible buffer zone, which requires forcibly incorporating legions of minorities who do not see themselves as Russian. By creating a strategic buffer Russia in fact creates a new chronic security problem in the form of new populations hostile to Moscow’s rule. This is why Moscow still operates like the KGB days (see e.g., Georgia).

In Russia fewer than half the number of babies were born in the 1990s than were born in the 1980s; while it has lost numerous of its satellite states in Asia and Europe. Russia's special forces are excellent - but the rank and file Russian army will sell their gear for a bottle of vodka.

1/7 of Russia is Muslim - mostly Turkic in orientation which poses a huge threat to Russia. In the long term Russia will experience a demographic time bomb - Turkey and Iran will not. Russia will face numerous separatist movements in the future and it will not be able to suppress them all. Russia has been the biggest loser in the last 30 years in terms of territory lost. Turkey has been #2 in gains. And Iran has been #1. Both Turkey and Russia need Iran -- Turkey = the USA/NATO. First the US (Turkey/Israel) tried regime change against Iran and Iran reversed the situation by causing the ouster of Mubarak in Egypt and ignited the Arab states -- now the U.S. is using Turkey to court Iran (= Plan B).

Now that the Soviet Union is gone, Turkey wants to expand East & North. It will go through Armenia; around Armenia (by way of Georgia); or try to deal with Iran. It may try all three options.

Russia is facing a clear series of threats in a very short time frame and Turkey wants to expand, and has the means -- in the Long Term Russia will be weak and vulnerable. Turkey needs Iran's influence in 50% Arab world and in Central Asia to overwhelm Russia. Russia needs Iran to counter that pressure.

Turkey and Russia will be start bumping heads in the next 50 years. Turkey will have to court Iran. Russia will have to court Iran. Either Turkey will win or Russia will win - but no matter what Iran will win. I should also note that China favors Iran over both Russia and Turkey (U.S.) -- Iran's interests are aligned with China's.



Turkey's Ambitions will Bring it into Direct Conflict with Moscow in the Long Term - Turkey's Plans Below:




What the map actually shows is that Russia is losing ground in the Caucuses - PINK is Russia proper. Had Russia expanded Ossetia & Armenia it could have cut-off Turkic expansion and Run energy pipelines from Iran > Armenia > Ossetia > Russia; while securing more Russian bases.

* The Ingush are predominantly Sunni Muslims (Green Next to Chechnya).
* In January 2008, the Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation launched a "counter-terrorism" operation in Ingushetia after receiving information that insurgents had been preparing a series of attacks.

* Kabardino-Balkaria (West of Ossetia) Turkic / Mongol; Sunni Muslims.

* Karachay-Cherkess Republic (West of Ossetia) Turkic / Mongol; Sunni Muslims.

* Factor in Daghestan & Chechnya.

* Ossetians are Iranians.

Russia is very vulnerable from Turkic influence in the Caucuses that can lead to a proxy war with Turkic groups that have a straight path to Moscow using asymmetric warfare. What is Russia going to do, Nuke itself?

During the breakup of the USSR the borders that the former Soviet states inherited from the USSR in 1991 were created on the principle of divide and rule from Moscow. Without Moscow to play the role of arbiter, these borders have become illogical, contested boundaries—fracturing ethnic groups, rupturing trade and communication routes, and breaking economic and political interdependencies. Ultimately this ploy may backfire on Russia.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/enlargeme...terview-504283
Interview w/ Georgia’s Vice PM - April 2011:

There is less talk of Georgia joining NATO after the August conflict. Perhaps it’s not realistic to assume that Georgia could join the Atlantic alliance anytime soon?

No, this is not right. We speak adequately about NATO membership, we speak all the time, when someone asks, we have a very vibrant NATO-oriented campaign in the country, we have an information centre which disseminates information about this. We don’t speak so much as it was the case before the war and during the [April 2008] NATO Bucharest summit. During the Bucharest summit we have been asking NATO to give us a mechanism in order to prepare for NATO membership. Now we have this mechanism. Now we don’t have to talk to much, now is the time to do business, to do our homework. We know we need two-three years to be prepared, to upgrade our institutions to the NATO standards. And then after, the ball will be in NATO’s camp.

We have very good preconditions to become members. Three times NATO has stated that Georgia will become member of NATO, two times after the war, one at the Kehl [NATO] summit [3 April 2009] and the other at Lisbon [NATO summit 20 November 2010]. So we have decisions that Georgia will become NATO member and we have mechanisms, we have a national program and a NATO-Georgia commission. So we have all the preconditions. We just need time and deploy more efforts to prepare.

[londontsi]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

This map is flawed in terms of the Nabucco strategy it is trying to highlight.

Iran cannot be part of Nabucco for political reasons.
My guess is until the present regime “falls”.

As far as the trans Caspian routes these cannot be implemented until and unless both Iran and Russia independently agree to this.
This simply will not happen.

The Iraq route has been dogged by disagreement between Northern Kurdish interests and Iraq central government.
Only recently they “agreed” subject to no future disputes etc.

Any debate or building a case ignoring these facts is pie in the sky.

[edojan]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

The topic is "Russia-friend or foe?" ... I am trying to keep it on topic. You want evidence that Russia is selling Armenian girls and women to other countries the way a farmer sells apples? You sure?

"Armenia is primarily a source country for women and girls trafficked to the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Turkey for the purpose of commercial sexual exploitation. Armenian men and women are trafficked to Russia for the purpose of forced labor. NGOs reported that Armenian women were also trafficked to Turkey for the purpose of forced labor. Women from Ukraine and Russia are trafficked to Armenia for the purpose of forced labor. Victims trafficked to the UAE usually fly to Dubai from Yerevan or via cities in Russia; the trafficking route to Turkey is generally via bus through Georgia. A small number of Armenian girls and boys are trafficked internally for purposes of commercial sexual exploitation and forced begging."

(U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June, 2009.)

“ The opposition Armenian National Congress has issued a statement, referring to the recent WikiLeaks disclosure on the situation with human trafficking in Armenia. "This document gives appalling details, dwelling on the phenomenon of child molestation as well," the statement goes on saying. According to the ANC acivists, authorities are to blame for the social depreciation and extreme poverty forcing many parents to send their children abroad for prostitution.

They further note that the document was elaborated based on the studies of the US Embassy in Yerevan and an interview with Armenian Prosecutor General Aghvan Hovsepyan. The leaked cable issued by the WikiLeaks accused the prosecutor general of supporting trafficking and porn industry in Armenia. It claimed that the Armenian president and the National Assembly's failure to take urgent measures to fire Hovsepyan demonstrate that traffikcing and porn business are supported on the state level in Armenia.”

http://www.tert.am/en/news/2011/02/11/traffickinganc/

Dude you always take a viewpoint of OMG armenians are dieing off!
Stop being a cry baby!
Look at some history first ... most light skinned Persians are part Armenian!
Large portions of Afgan population are of Armenian decent. All comes from persian empire which armenia was part of. Persians are dark skinned people! (granted originally there were few lighter skinned Arian but those have washed away genetically ... ).
Large portions of Turkeys population is part Armenian!
When it comes to Russians ... Krasnadar region large portion of Russians there are of Armenian decent.
There are dozens of such Examples!
DNA study that links population in England to ancient Armenia as well!

http://www.springerlink.com/content/lhlll6l3txeyyc5h/

Issue is not that Armenians are Disappearing but how and when we can reunite the Armenians in other countries into single nation.
Stupid issues like prostitution and related stuff is rather irrelevant. Every country has this problem and since Armenia is not economically strong of course there is little more then average but its expected. Don't confuse Armenia with countries such as Thailand ....

[Persopolis]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Dude you always take a viewpoint of OMG armenians are dieing off!
Stop being a cry baby!
Look at some history first ... most light skinned Persians are part Armenian!
Large portions of Afgan population are of Armenian decent. All comes from persian empire which armenia was part of. Persians are dark skinned people! (granted originally there were few lighter skinned Arian but those have washed away genetically ... ).
Large portions of Turkeys population is part Armenian!
When it comes to Russians ... Krasnadar region large portion of Russians there are of Armenian decent.
There are dozens of such Examples!
DNA study that links population in England to ancient Armenia as well!

http://www.springerlink.com/content/lhlll6l3txeyyc5h/

Issue is not that Armenians are Disappearing but how and when we can reunite the Armenians in other countries into single nation.
Stupid issues like prostitution and related stuff is rather irrelevant. Every country has this problem and since Armenia is not economically strong of course there is little more then average but its expected. Don't confuse Armenia with countries such as Thailand ....

Your post made me laugh (really). But if you want to take it to a more appropriate thread; I'll respond. You're not friends with Oslonor by chance? My posts weren't actually about skin color, but did you know some Persians actually turn out orange? http://www.persiandreamkittens.com/

Anyway, here's some information about the thread: "Armenia hopes for investments from Russia." http://vestnikkavkaza.net/news/economy/13409.html

[Artsakh]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

First of all, their country has recognized the Armenian genocide, unlike America, and unlike most of the other countries in the world, Russian presidents have visited the Armenian Genocide Memorial dozens of times.

Second, as they are the most adult, realistic and developed Diaspora worldwide, they realize, in contrary to Armenians in America, that visiting Armenia, investing huge sums of money in Armenia and Artsakh, investing in pro-Armenian organizations whose goal is not only to beg for genocide recognition, and creating a wealthy, influential group of Armenians who work together (unlike Armenians in America, who are fighting for years for a simple genocide museum in Washington), is much more effective.

It shows the sickness of you that you dare to say that because their demonstration is not as "large" as the only-once-a-year-Armenians in America, they are the most Turk pleasing. Actually, I know the Turks fear the Russian-Armenians the most.

It just shows your deeply rooted anti-Russianess, doing your best to try to twist a story so that you can say something negative about Russia.

APRES!!

right on the money!