Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[Persopolis]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

The Persian king initiated the deportation of the Armenian people even without their approval.

Yes he did: and without that act there would have been 2 Armenian Genocides because of the invading Turks.

Keep in mind that Armenians were members of the Persian Empire from the time of antiquity.

When Julfa was evacuated, The Persian army fought 2 wars against invading Turks. First it was the Mongols. And a few years later, the Ottomans tried to invade Persia through Julfa (Armenia). The Persian King ordered Armenians to move into central Persia and built them a new town called "New Julfa." The Persian King ordered that all fortifications and crops be destroyed in Old-Julfa (but not Armenian monuments). The reason was to deny the invading Ottoman-Turk army shelter and food, and to kill off their Army by subjecting them to the harsh winter without refuge. Even the old Armenian accounts state that they came to central Persia to flee the Ottoman Empire's persecution. Have you ever heard of a King building a new city for another group of people, preserving their culture for centuries, and creating conditions for them prosper? Parskahyes (Persian Armenians) flourished in several of Persia's great cities (including: Isfahan) - they were also members of the Persian King's court. It was a decision that had to be taken.

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Nowadays Russia lacks clear orienteer in its geopolitics; it becomes more and more ambiguous, self damaging and destructive, no superior armament can replace bad/damaging politics. Today’s Russia's "politics" is: considering all its big oil/gas customers: allies. This trade politics eventually will result in trading Russia, by the customers, for something more tangible, at the end.

Now it has few true allies and a lot of real/concealed enemies; this can't last very long. Just remember where are strong/reliable supporters of Russia; they doesn't exist and/or support them any more; because of the lack of Russians mutual devotion to them.

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Yes he did: and without that act there would have been 2 Armenian Genocides because of the invading Turks.

Keep in mind that Armenians were members of the Persian Empire from the time of antiquity.

When Julfa was evacuated, The Persian army fought 2 wars against invading Turks. First it was the Mongols. And a few years later, the Ottomans tried to invade Persia through Julfa (Armenia). The Persian King ordered Armenians to move into central Persia and built them a new town called "New Julfa." The Persian King ordered that all fortifications and crops be destroyed in Old-Julfa (but not Armenian monuments). The reason was to deny the invading Ottoman-Turk army shelter and food, and to kill off their Army by subjecting them to the harsh winter without refuge. Even the old Armenian accounts state that they came to central Persia to flee the Ottoman Empire's persecution. Have you ever heard of a King building a new city for another group of people, preserving their culture for centuries, and creating conditions for them prosper? Parskahyes (Persian Armenians) flourished in several of Persia's great cities (including: Isfahan) - they were also members of the Persian King's court. It was a decision that had to be taken.

Armenians in Iran (ca 1500-1994)
History of Armenian Colony

http://www.armenian-history.com/Diaspora/Armenians_in_Iran.htm

[Tigranakert]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Erdogan’s visit to Moscow casts no shadow on Armenia-Russia partnership - March, 2011

Turkey's Erdogan was on an official visit to the Russian Federation several days ago to discuss energy matters. The energy talks did not produce any noticeable results. Actually, Ankara and Moscow seemed to have disagreed on the Russian-backed South Stream pipeline. While in Moscow, Prime Minister Erdogan took the freedom to present Russian President Demitry Medvedev a copy of the Treaty of Moscow. The significance of the infamous treaty signed between Bolsheviks and Kemalist Turks in 1921 was that it officially recognized the borders of the Bolshevik state and Kemalist Turkey. Needless to say, many Armenians are angry and the reoccurring fear is that Moscow is going to sell Armenia and/or Artsakh for better trade deals with Ankara and/or Baku. As usual, Armenia's anti-Russian activists are also jumping on the opportunity to spread some more poison and CIA funded front offices disguised as "independent" press are once again attempting to place a wedge between Yerevan and Moscow.

Before I go on, a friendly reminder - Armenians that bring up the evils of Bolshevism to discredit Russians today are either intellectual midgets or Western agents.

I'm going to present the reader with somewhat of a different historical take on the matter: had it not been the Bolsheviks in 1921 that recognized Turkey's eastern borders - have no doubt that it would have been an Armenian leadership that would have recognized Turkey's borders. If it wasn't the "Treaty of Moscow" - it may very well have been the "Treaty of Yerevan". Having been totally abandoned by the English, the French and the Americans, we all know that Armenia at the time was in NO POSITION TO DEMAND ANYTHING FROM ANYONE! Didn't the big talking ARF also abandon Armenian lands to Turks - simply because there was no way they could hold on to them under the circumstances at the time? Therefore, all the bullxxxx we now hear about the Treaty of Moscow being "invalid" because "Armenians were not present at the signing" is just that - bullxxxx.

You know what? Thank God Armenians were not there! Had they been there - we wouldn't be blaming Bolsheviks for signing the damn treaty - we would be blaming Armenians! At the very least, we now have a Bolshevik/Russian punching bag to make us feel good.

Although much of what I'm about to say is redundant, seeing that Armenians are persistently ignorant of politics, I won't feel bad if I'm repeating myself.

Moscow is not about to sell Artsakh, they are not going to sell Armenia... as a matter of fact, they are not going to sell anything in the Caucasus. Russia is still not done reversing the major setbacks it suffered during the 1990s. It is well known that the Caucasus region is one of Russia's three most vital geostrategic areas of concern. Accordingly, no Russian leadership will tolerate a foreign political presence in the area - let alone a Turkic-Islamic one. It is also well known that Russia's strategic alliance with Armenia is very deep and one that fully transcends money matters. Had it been money matters at stake here, Moscow would have sold Armenia to the Turks many years ago and our ultra-nationalistic Russophobes would have been able to do nothing about it.

Knowing how irrationally Russophobic a significant portion of Armenians will react over this matter (something that took place between “Bolsheviks” and Kemalists some 90 years ago), this was Ankara’s cleaver attempt to blackmail Armenia’s strategic alliance with Russia by sowing seeds of discontent amongst us politically naive Armenians. Seeing the fear and hostility emanating out of Armenians as a result of Erdogan's little insignificant gift to Medvedev, I'm afraid to say that Erdogan achieved just what he wanted - manipulating Armenian fears and emotions. Erdogan played Armenians like a fiddle. I tell you what folks – say what you will, when it comes to political matters, Turks are much more sophisticated and much more smarter than us Armenians.

The treaty in question may be important for Ankara for obvious PR reasons, they do not, however, mean much (if anything) to Moscow today. The only thing Moscow is truly interested in doing is to tighten the energy noose around Ankara's neck via Gazprom and Rosneft. Thus, the only thing the pointless picture presented to Medvedev will be doing is collecting dust. After all is said and done, Armenians need to be fully aware of the following two formulas:
No Russian presence in the Caucasus = no Armenian state in the Caucasus
If Russia wanted to abandon Armenia to Turks, despite our patriot's best efforts Armenia would cease to exist
I am in no way suggesting that we don't need to pay close attention to what transpires between Moscow and Ankara. All I am suggesting is not to panic, not to obsess, not to fear-monger and to act hysterical. Armenia is a geostrategic foothold in the south Caucasus for Moscow - and as long as Turks, Iranians, Islamists or Western interests threaten the region, Moscow will continue to jealously protect its relationship with the Armenian state. Moreover, Moscow has invested billions of dollars in various economic and infrastructural projects in Armenia. Thus, Moscow has revealed that it has a vested strategic interest in Armenia. Moscow will not harm its hard won investments!

Nevertheless, the reader must be reminded that treaties aren't worth the paper they are written on. International law or no international law, treaty or no treaty, border recognition or no border recognition, the world community understands only one international law - might makes right! International law is written by the powerful to control the weak. Instead of wasting our precious time and effort pursuing political dead-ends such as genocide recognition and "Wilsonian Armenia", it would be much wiser to concentrate on building a powerful Armenia. Our crying and our pleading (at the feet of corrupt Western leaders nonetheless) will only serve to derail our efforts to build a better Armenia. Only a powerful Armenia can impose its will on the international stage and right the wrongs of history.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Which brings me to Ara Papian's work concerning this matter (see corresponding article below). Although it does have a great PR value, geopolitically speaking - it’s a waste of time listening to Ara Papyan’s legalese. We are wasting more than enough time and money over these types of legal and/or ethical matters? Again, remember the adage the world lives by - might makes right! It's that simple. If you folks want Western Armenia returned, than do everything possible to make sure the Armenia we have today grows strong. Again - laws are made by the powerful to control the weak.

Regardless of the intention of the authors of the following less-then exemplary articles, what the articles in question accomplish is that they clearly underscores the importance of better activism in Moscow by Armenians. Seeing that Turks are very proactive in their dealing within Russia, we Armenians, who are better placed in Russia, need to counteract. By saying counteract I don't mean making comments like - with strategic partners like Russia who needs enemies?! Screaming foul all the time does not work in politics, as our American diaspora has learned (or should have learned) and angrily cursing at a political entity that you live of off is utterly foolish.

Nevertheless, despite the destructive wishes of our nation's Russophobes, Moscow and Ankara will not enter into an alliance at Armenia's expense (there are Armenians today that actually wish Moscow did sell out Armenia just to prove a point - even if the point they are trying to prove would mean disaster to Armenia). Despite their lucrative dealings, Russia and Turkey will not enter into an alliance at the expense of Armenia. The signs are clear that despite their trade relations, Moscow and Ankara are on the opposite sides of the geopolitical fence. The fact is that Russia and Turkey are regional competitors. Moreover, Russians have not forgotten (nor will they easily forgive) the role Turkey played in Chechnya and Georgia. Russian officials fully know the dangers of pan-Turkism and Islamic fundamentalism perhaps more so that us Armenians.

I reiterate: despite it's very lucrative economic relationship with Turkey, Moscow continues to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Despite it's very lucrative economic relationship with Turkey, Moscow continues to protect Armenia's borders against Turks. Despite it's very lucrative economic relationship with Turkey, Moscow continues to warn Turkey against making any moves on Armenia. Despite it's very lucrative economic relationship with Turkey, Moscow continues to warn Baku against the resumption of hostilities in Artsakh. Despite it's very lucrative economic relationship with Turkey, Moscow continues investing in the Armenian economy to the tune of billions of dollars and it continues arming and training the Armenian military to the tune of billions of dollars.

By the way, other than funding some corrosive programs in the country via NGOs, what exactly has the civilized West ever done for Armenia? Should I compare what Russians do for Armenia with what "freedom and democracy loving" American/Western officials have done for Armenia?! There is no comparison. And the ridicules aspect in all this is the fact that many of those that love bad-mouthing Russians today are the same ones that love praising Americans!

Armenians are a strange bunch indeed.

Although Ankara throws a temper-tantrum every time any nation even thinks about the Armenian Genocide, for some strange reason Ankara remains very quite when high ranking Russian politicians visit the Armenian Genocide memorial complex in Armenia. The reason why Turkey does not complain is simply this - Ankara fears Moscow's military might at its doorstep and it is sorely dependent on Russian energy. As I have stated on many occasions in the past, Moscow has many reasons (economic, money, trade) to abandon Armenia - but obviously it has not nor will it ever abandon Armenia because of one very crucially important factor in politics - geostrategy. Simply put: the Kremlin realizes that Armenia is Russia's insurance policy in the south Caucasus. Without a firm foothold in a friendly Armenia, all of Moscow's advantages in the region will be annulled. Kremlin officials realize that a strong Armenia in the Caucasus enhances Moscow's regional strength. As a result, Moscow has been using Armenia as a platform to project its power in the region.

Let's stop the fear-mongering about an insignificant treaty signed some 90 years ago and let's begin to act like rational adults. Let's also realize that times have changed. The geopolitical climate that existed prior to the first World War and the one that existed during the First World War and the one that existed after the First World War were all fundamentally different from each other. Each time period in political history needs to be observed/assessed independently. Similarly, the geopolitical climate that existed before the Soviet collapse and the geopolitical climate that existed during the transition period after the Soviet collapse and the geopolitical climate that currently exists in the world are also fundamentally different from one another. While learning from our past mistakes and successes, we need to treat our present situation uniquely. And, more importantly, we need to work collectively to make sure that the ultimate responsibility for the Armenian state stays firmly in our hands in the future.

Every nation needs its ultra-nationalists, if only for effect. I'm glad that the ARF condemned Erdogan's visit to Moscow and I'm glad that they also organized a demonstration in front of the Russian Embassy in Armenia. Russians are not Armenians. An issue that Russian officials may not even notice or simply deem insignificant can be crucially important to us Armenians. Therefore, Russian officials must constantly be reminded of the historical wrongs Armenia has had to endure. Russians officials need to be reminded of Turkish machinations. Russian officials need to be reminded that their most important ally in the region, Armenia, has concerns. This is where my suggesting about making a more powerful political effort in Moscow comes into play. At the end of the day, insults and threats directed against a political entity that enables us to have a maintain a state in the volitiel Caucasus is not smart to say the least. When it comes to matter pertaining to Turkey, Armenian officials and organizations simply need to make a more concerted effort to convince Russian officials that Armenia's national interests and Russia's national converge.

After all is said and done, it all comes down to this. As they have done for centuries, Moscow and Ankara are destined to clash. Turkey is too large, too politically ambitious and too Islamic for Russian tastes. Russia will only engage Turkey from a position of strength. Those well versed in Eurasian history know that Russians and Turks have been historic rivals for centuries. Due to their respective cultures, sizes and locations, Russia and Turkey are considered to be natural competitors in Eurasia. During the past two hundreds years, Russians and Turks fought about a dozen major wars. Virtually all of the wars in question were won by Russians, the last major one being the Caucasus Campaign during the early stages of the First World War where the Czar's imperial army reached as far as west as Bitlis and Van in Western Armenia. More recently, Turks fought along side Islamic insurgents in southern Russia and were again defeated. Consequently, despite the growing economic cooperation between Moscow and Ankara these days, I have always believed that Russia and Turkey will clash sooner-or-later. The well known American think tank, Stratfor, seems to believe so as well.
"Ultimately, both Russia and Turkey know that this relationship is likely temporary at best. The two Eurasian powers still distrust each other and have divergent long-term goals, even if in the short term there is a small window of opportunity for Turkish and Russian interests to overlap. The law of geopolitics dictates that the two ascendant powers are doomed to clash — just not today."

Stratfor
In closing, I'd like to say that Russian-Turkish relations are definitely something for us Armenians to monitor closely but nothing to fear. The more dependent Ankara becomes to Moscow, less likely for it to have a pan-Turkic appetite. The more dependent Ankara becomes to Moscow, less likely for it to threaten Armenia. This matter should help Armenians realize the need to make a better pan-national effort in the halls of the Kremlin on behalf of Armenia's national interests. Instead of cowering in fear or predicting doom, we should be using our well placed human assets throughout the Russian Federation for the benefit of the Armenian state. I have discussed this frequently reoccurring triangular topic of Russian-Armenian-Turkish relations on several previous occasions. I have provided several of the links below. I have also posted some of the articles that Erdogan's recent visit to Moscow spawned.

Arevordi
March, 2011

http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

...

In closing, I'd like to say that Russian-Turkish relations are definitely something for us Armenians to monitor closely but nothing to fear. The more dependent Ankara becomes to Moscow, less likely for it to have a pan-Turkic appetite. The more dependent Ankara becomes to Moscow, less likely for it to threaten Armenia. This matter should help Armenians realize the need to make a better pan-national effort in the halls of the Kremlin on behalf of Armenia's national interests. Instead of cowering in fear or predicting doom, we should be using our well placed human assets throughout the Russian Federation for the benefit of the Armenian state. I have discussed this frequently reoccurring triangular topic of Russian-Armenian-Turkish relations on several previous occasions. I have provided several of the links below. I have also posted some of the articles that Erdogan's recent visit to Moscow spawned.

Strange Russian excuse/logic; The more pipelines of Russian Gas/Oil passes through Turkey and other big investments done there, the more dependent Turkey becomes??!??!??

Do you believe what you say?

[Tigranakert]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Of course it makes sense, as we see with Armenia, the more investments Russia makes in Armenia, the more Armenia gets dependent on Russia. Although this is not totally representative as Armenia is a small country, but the scale of investments is times hundred in case of Turkey.

The more companies Russians take over in Turkey, the more Russian nuclear built power stations they built in Turkey, the more gas and oil Turkey imports from Russia, makes Turkey more dependent on Russia. Don't forget, Russia has a lot of alternatives (West and since a few months also the Eastern markets with new oil and gas pipelines, harbors being built in the East, this basically shifted the whole political balance (energy)).

Especially taking into account the anti-Turkey attitude which is reigning in Europe now, Turkey sees no other choice as to reorientate itself to the East, and building up economic relations with it's arch enemy, Russia.

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Russia now owns more than 51% of Armenia assets, Russians control our economy and therefore are responsible for its disastrous condition as well.

In case of Turkey your statement is incorrect, because it is a huge country and USA-EU investments are dominating there. Russian investments (pipelines etc.) are not that huge (believe me, Russia is not a rich country), they are not economically that strong to control Turkey’s economy, but the opposite statement that Turkey can threaten Russian investments made there, because of some political considerations (relating to Armenia etc ...), is obvious.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Russia now owns more than 51% of Armenia assets, Russians control our economy and therefore are responsible for its disastrous condition as well.

In case of Turkey your statement is incorrect, because it is a huge country and USA-EU investments are dominating there. Russian investments (pipelines etc.) are not that huge (believe me, Russia is not a rich country), they are not economically that strong to control Turkey’s economy, but the opposite statement that Turkey can threaten Russian investments made there, because of some political considerations (relating to Armenia etc ...), is obvious.

Are you kidding me?

First of all, because Turkey is a bigger country than Armenia, the consequence is that Russia will always realize it is it's rival and competitor in the region and not a strategic partner with the same long-term visions and goals.

Second, Turkey acquires around 70% of it's gas imports and 30 to 40% of it's oil imports from Russia!

Third, the Turkish-American trade volume is about 15 billion, wheres the Turkish-Russian trade volume is a staggering 40 billion to be increased to 100 billion in the future.

Fourth, what the xxxx does "believe me, Russia is not rich" mean? That you are stupid?

Fifth, Turkey has been in a political "conflict" with Europe, they want to reorientate their politics towards the East, and Turkey is fully dependent on Russian energy supplies and other economic and especially "political" support. Turkey didn't, will not, and can't demand things from Russia relating Armenia. Furthermore, it is our job to influence the political situation in Russia, not to sit and watch until the day something happens which is not so beneficial, to shout "you see, Russia was not on our side". Even though Europe and America have never been on our side, but keeping your mouth shut about them.

Sixth, Turkey has an immense Kurdish problem, which in my opinion will only increase in the future, and has as a consequence that it will be more careful regards their demands and aggressions towards other countries. They just hope stupid Armenians like you will screw it up, cutting their only lifeline they have, after which they can easily finish the job without resistance.

And last, what the **** are you discussing and even condemning if you don't even have your facts straight?

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Are you kidding me?
Bla bla ....
Fourth, what the xxxx does "believe me, Russia is not rich" mean? That you are stupid?
Fifth, Turkey has been in a political "conflict" with Europe, they want to reorientate their politics towards the East, and Turkey is fully dependent on Russian energy supplies and other economic and especially "political" support. Turkey didn't, will not, and can't demand things from Russia relating Armenia. Furthermore, it is our job to influence the political situation in Russia, not to sit and watch until the day something happens which is not so beneficial, to shout "you see, Russia was not on our side". Even though Europe and America have never been on our side, but keeping your mouth shut about them.
Sixth, Turkey has an immense Kurdish problem, which in my opinion will only increase in the future, and has as a consequence that it will be more careful regards their demands and aggressions towards other countries. They just hope stupid Armenians like you will screw it up, cutting their only lifeline they have, after which they can easily finish the job without resistance.
And last, what the **** are you discussing and even condemning if you don't even have your facts straight?

You are tooooooo wise, in your pro-Russian devotion, to talk with!!! The number of, not that stupid and brave points you make, proves it.