Armenian cognates w/other languages

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

It's overwhelmingly true that one should take caution when looking for inherited words in Armenian that have cognates in Persian.

Agh and Salt are indeed descended from the same root "Sal", though they are not strikingly obvious as similar. It think it's worthy to point out to Armenians that in many words with gh from our language were shifts from an L sound in PIE, as odd as it may seem. Shifts from using the tip of the tongue to using the center of your tongue aren't very common changes and I'd like to find out if Armenian experienced an intermediary sound during this shift at one point. It might help me see this shift as not so odd.

For bag, we say Baysag (the only word for bag that I use in Armenian), do you think this is related to the word for Bag, let alone Sack (which is actually a french borrowing, "sac") in English? Could it be a case of exaptation (fusing two words into one seamless form, inheriting a specialized or unifying meaning) between Barg and Qsag?

[gmd]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

I also use maz for hair and I have never used the words mentioned for bag. I always thought it was soomka.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

For bag, we say Baysag (the only word for bag that I use in Armenian), do you think this is related to the word for Bag, let alone Sack (which is actually a french borrowing, "sac") in English?

In Armenian the word Պայուսակ (Bayusag/Payusak) means a hand held bag. The general word for "bag" in Armenian is Պարկ (Barg/Park).

We also find the word Պարկ in bagpipe - Պարկաբզուկ (Bargapzuk/Parkabzuk)

And we see it in backpack as well - Ուսապարկ/Դիմաապարկ (Usabarg/Usapark or Dimabarg/Timapark)

A little bag (or a shopping bag) is Տոպրակ (dobrag/toprak)

A big bag (the bag Santa Claus puts his toys) is Մեշոկ (meshok)

The word for sack is "Քսակ" (qsak), although Քսակ as well as Դրամապանակ are now used for wallet.

[Stark Evade]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

otar - other, outer
ays, ayt, ayn - this, that, yon
arch - arch (latin for bear)
sharzhel (to move) - charge
hivand - heave... okay, now I'm getting carried away!

I didn't retain much from 4 years of Latin but I believe the word for bear is ursus -a. As in the constellations Ursa Major/Minor.

You're talking about Greek: arktos.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

In Armenian the word Պայուսակ (Bayusag/Payusak) means a hand held bag. The general word for "bag" in Armenian is Պարկ (Barg/Park).

We also find the word Պարկ in bagpipe - Պարկաբզուկ (Bargapzuk/Parkabzuk)

And we see it in backpack as well - Ուսապարկ/Դիմաապարկ (Usabarg/Usapark or Dimabarg/Timapark)

A little bag (or a shopping bag) is Տոպրակ (dobrag/toprak)

A big bag (the bag Santa Claus puts his toys) is Մեշոկ (meshok)

The word for sack is "Քսակ" (qsak), although Քսակ as well as Դրամապանակ are now used for wallet.

Thanks, I found this very helpful. Do you find that the verb "perel/berel" are related to some of these forms for bag, like barg or dobrag? Look at the p(vowel)r or b(vowel)r distributions.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

mrmral (murmur)

It is easy to speculate that this was an onomatopoeia that could've produced a form in Armenian unrelated to some kind of PIE root. I know that Latin has the exact same form as in English, it's possible English got it from there.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

lus-aber (light bearer/Lucifer)

Implicit in your example is that «լուսին» եւ «լոյս» also share the same root, derived/inherited from the Latin lux (lucis).

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

not quite. There is no evidence that Armenian inherits words of such basic elemental significance in a language from Latin. There seems to be more evidence that the different branches of Indo-European each derived their own words for light from the PIE form. It's not surprising to find such elemental words having such elemental roots.

This is not a case of Romanian language where some extremely elemental words are inherited either from Romance or from Slavic, as the geographical region was significantly engulfed in the presence of Latin and Slavic languages during different periods. To illustrate, Romanian is well known for being a Romance language with Slavic tendencies. It's basic vocabulary is Romance (inherited from Latin), but such elemental words as yes and no, or love, take on the Slavic forms, likely because they were more convenient for communicating such elemental concepts with the influx of Slavic migrants after the Roman period into and around the region of Dachia/Rumania.

I don't see how this could be compared to the case between Latin and Armenian; even though Latin had incorporated Armenia into its empire briefly, it was not an intense enough involvement to start toying with our most elemental vocabulary and make us use Latin forms instead.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

not quite. There is no evidence that Armenian inherits words of such basic elemental significance in a language from Latin.

[Rome] had incorporated Armenia into its empire briefly.

I see no evidence to the contrary; i.e. that the Latin root "lux, lucis" has not influenced the Armenian word for light "luys". It may have been an independently derived root as you said but even you admit that Latin and Armenian had contact with each other. And even though Armenia was only shortly a province of the Empire, I am sure that they had trade and political relationships, before and after.

At the very least, it's something that deserves being looked into.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenian cognates w/other languages

I see no evidence to the contrary; i.e. that the Latin root "lux, lucis" has not influenced the Armenian word for light "luys". It may have been an independently derived root as you said but even you admit that Latin and Armenian had contact with each other. And even though Armenia was only shortly a province of the Empire, I am sure that they had trade and political relationships, before and after.

I would like to point out that Latin pronounced their "c"s as "k"s, so Caesar was pronounced Kaysar (Germans were the only ones who got the pronouncing like the Roman one in "Kaiser").

Turning Luk (Phonetic pronunciation of the Latin root for light) into Armenian Luys requires an apt phonologically described process in Armenian that would explain such a transformation of the Latin form to produce our word. You could note more similarity in the nominative/genitive form Lukis (Lucis) to Armenian Luys. If you could build a case of Armenian language at some point in its history liking to borrow Latin nominative/genitive forms, that would help you sound more convincing.

Personally, I also have a feeling that the Armenian usage of Luys derived from purely Indo-European inheritance began much earlier than even the birth of Rome. Armenian, do you have any sources that could help confirm this? Are there records in Ancient Armenian mythology that have a related form of Armenian "Luys"?