Religion and Atheism

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Religion has played this game all along. When confronted by proof which contradicts its teaching it simply makes up a new fairytale. First they said the world is 4,000 years old-when we discovered dinasaurs and carbon dating it said yeh sure the world is older then 4,000 years but to god one year is many of our human years so...

A year is something we have defined relative to our own solar system. Universally though, is time constant?

[hipeter924]

Re: Religion and Atheism

The laws are derived from Judeo-Christian principles... both economic and moral laws. The parallels between American and ancient Greek philosophy are pretty apparent as well. I guess I'd be interested to see what a society based on atheist laws would look like. I believe Albania adopted state atheism at one point after WWII... I take it things didn't turn out too well.

A state built on Communism, not Atheism. It's like equating a secular society in which religion exists, with a theocracy; theocracy (which has a state religion and can deny other religions their freedom) and communism (which denies religious freedom) both being extremes. Secularism is better because it neither denies religious freedom (to an extent) nor does it force a state religion on people who do not agree with it or follow another faith. Secularism is the compromise between between state atheism (in the communist sense) and theocracy.

[jgk3]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Religion has played this game all along. When confronted by proof which contradicts its teaching it simply makes up a new fairytale. First they said the world is 4,000 years old-when we discovered dinasaurs and carbon dating it said yeh sure the world is older then 4,000 years but to god one year is many of our human years so...-they stated the world is flat but when proven wrong they said yeh sure its round but still it was made by god so um yeh we are mostly right anyways- they said the world was the center of the universe but when confronted by the evidence to the contrary they killed the man who provided the evidence. Those who started a religion would not recognize it today as their own because religion like everything else changes over time despite claiming all along that it does not. Any shmuck can say o things are the way they are because god wants them to be that way and there really is no argument against this because this statement cannot be proven or disproven. I give this shmuck the benefit of a dought thus i am agnostic not athiest, but i will trust my common sence and rational before i trust some dude in a dress wearing heavy xxxlery, a big beard and carrying a big stick.... If you have common sence and are capable of rational thought then chances are you dont need religion but if your lacking in these attributes then perhaps you would be better of doing things that other people tell you to do.

Yes, all religions are traditions which evolve over time. They can't just stick to the scriptures from Jesus' time in order to explain all the scientific discoveries that the world community has gained since then, nor do they try to (unless they're a radical minority). When you can show, using the scientific method, a contradictory conclusion concerning the age of the planet, the roundness of the earth or the heliocenter-ness of our solar system, then of course the religious people will be forced to adjust to these new "facts" about the universe.

But even after all these scientific developments have occurred, religious people seem to hold onto their metaphysical stands concerning things such as the soul, divinity, afterlife, etc... Once upon a time, metaphysics were also used to explain whether or not the Earth was round, or if it was the center of the universe, but the scientific tradition was able to pull those issues out of the category of metaphysics, and into physical science, because people discovered a means by which those old claims could be tested, using the scientific method.

But these scientists were not able to hijack all the issues/debates under the realm of metaphysics and import them into their arena of science for dissection, and thus, people will continue to cling onto ideas such as human ethics coming from God, and will continue to do so unless science finds a way to convince everyone, using its methodology, that God doesn't exist, or that ethics can be explained by some scientific formula or whatever. Neither has happened, and I think we both know that it will never happen.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Yes, all religions are traditions which evolve over time. They can't just stick to the scriptures from Jesus' time in order to explain all the scientific discoveries that the world community has gained since then, nor do they try to (unless they're a radical minority). When you can show, using the scientific method, a contradictory conclusion concerning the age of the planet, the roundness of the earth or the heliocenter-ness of our solar system, then of course the religious people will be forced to adjust to these new "facts" about the universe.

But even after all these scientific developments have occurred, religious people seem to hold onto their metaphysical stands concerning things such as the soul, divinity, afterlife, etc... Once upon a time, metaphysics were also used to explain whether or not the Earth was round, or if it was the center of the universe, but the scientific tradition was able to pull those issues out of the category of metaphysics, and into physical science, because people discovered a means by which those old claims could be tested, using the scientific method.

But these scientists were not able to hijack all the issues/debates under the realm of metaphysics and import them into their arena of science for dissection, and thus, people will continue to cling onto ideas such as human ethics coming from God, and will continue to do so unless science finds a way to convince everyone, using its methodology, that God doesn't exist, or that ethics can be explained by some scientific formula or whatever. Neither has happened, and I think we both know that it will never happen.

Well i agree that proving the nonexistance of god would be hard if not impossible (depending on the god) but i have to disagree about the ethics part. Ethics can indeed be explained and it has been explained. Sociology and psychology have given us explanations on both the personal and social level about what ethics are-where they come from-etc.. Religion is the obsolete version of the scientific method which these days does way more harm then good. The fact that many people still like to be religious does not mean that religion is better at explaining anything better than science, it just means there are many uninformed and/or irrational people out there and this is nothing new.

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Haykakan:

How do sociology and psychology explain ethics or morality? This is a question, not a challenge.


You say religion does more harm, but do you realize that it was religious people who were behind the anti slavery movement or that it was religious arabs and Christian missionaries that saved many Armenians during and after the AG? We can go on and on about the positive things that people of faith do, and we can also list the negatives, but the teachings of all major religions, except judaism, are for the betterment of all mankind. Just because some have mis used it does not mean that the religion itself is bad. It's like how some want to take guns away from all Americans because some idiots who have them, most without a permit, commit crimes. As you can see the logic of those wanting to take everyone's guns away is poor.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Haykakan:

How do sociology and psychology explain ethics or morality? This is a question, not a challenge.


You say religion does more harm, but do you realize that it was religious people who were behind the anti slavery movement or that it was religious arabs and Christian missionaries that saved many Armenians during and after the AG? We can go on and on about the positive things that people of faith do, and we can also list the negatives, but the teachings of all major religions, except judaism, are for the betterment of all mankind. Just because some have mis used it does not mean that the religion itself is bad. It's like how some want to take guns away from all Americans because some idiots who have them, most without a permit, commit crimes. As you can see the logic of those wanting to take everyone's guns away is poor.

Actually that logic is not so poor at all. China did exactly that and look at what happened to their population. I myself like guns and own a few nice ones but that logic of taking away everyones guns will actually bring down homicide rates- there is no question that it will. Whether it is the right thing to do or not is another issue. I have no argument against the fact that there are good people who are religious and that many people have indeed benefited from various things provided by religious teachings and institutions. Unfortunately all the good work that has been done in the name of religion pales in comparson to the evile that was done under the same name. From the spanish inquisition to our own genocide and everything before durinmg and after that period attests to the carnage inflicted on humanity in the name of religiion. The divisions and hatred that religion creates among people does far more harm to humanity then if you had taken all of its benefits and multiplied them by a 1,000. The teachings of some religions may indeed be for the betterment of mankind but that is not how these religions end up being used, they always end up doing exactly the opposit no matter how well intentioned they were to start with. As for how science can explain your first question i suggest you use google and look for scientific reasearch papers/articles in those fields i mentioned in relation to ethics, morality... I think you will find plenty of interesting stuff in there to keep you occupied for months. Reading sociology and psichology reasearch is actually very interesting and i recomend it to anyone. Much of the results may draw the reaction of "bah of course thats how it is, everybody knows that" but its not that simple. For example which of the following statements is true? "birds of a feather flock togather" or "opposits attract"? Plenty of people will proclaim one or the other to be the fact of life but it is not until you do scientific research that you get the right answer. Once you read what the results of the study state then you become the victim of hindsight and proclaim you knew this all along when that simply was not the case. Human nature is a funny thing and it is quite interesting to study it.

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Actually that logic is not so poor at all. China did exactly that and look at what happened to their population. I myself like guns and own a few nice ones but that logic of taking away everyones guns will actually bring down homicide rates- there is no question that it will. Whether it is the right thing to do or not is another issue. I have no argument against the fact that there are good people who are religious and that many people have indeed benefited from various things provided by religious teachings and institutions. Unfortunately all the good work that has been done in the name of religion pales in comparson to the evile that was done under the same name. From the spanish inquisition to our own genocide and everything before durinmg and after that period attests to the carnage inflicted on humanity in the name of religiion. The divisions and hatred that religion creates among people does far more harm to humanity then if you had taken all of its benefits and multiplied them by a 1,000. The teachings of some religions may indeed be for the betterment of mankind but that is not how these religions end up being used, they always end up doing exactly the opposit no matter how well intentioned they were to start with. As for how science can explain your first question i suggest you use google and look for scientific reasearch papers/articles in those fields i mentioned in relation to ethics, morality... I think you will find plenty of interesting stuff in there to keep you occupied for months. Reading sociology and psichology reasearch is actually very interesting and i recomend it to anyone. Much of the results may draw the reaction of "bah of course thats how it is, everybody knows that" but its not that simple. For example which of the following statements is true? "birds of a feather flock togather" or "opposits attract"? Plenty of people will proclaim one or the other to be the fact of life but it is not until you do scientific research that you get the right answer. Once you read what the results of the study state then you become the victim of hindsight and proclaim you knew this all along when that simply was not the case. Human nature is a funny thing and it is quite interesting to study it.

I will start a new thread on gun control so as to reply to you and not 'hijack' this thread.

I think the key to this issue, whether religion is good or bad won't go anywhere between us because you believe it has done more bad than good, so you treat the so called tools of religion as part of it, whereas I say many of those who did bad things in the name of religion were likely not religious at all or had a very poor understanding of it. Religion can divide, it can also unite, same is true with ethnicity and nationality. If you expect people to become free thinkers overnight because they get rid of religion, then you highly under estimate human nature. People are fickle and sheepish, especially in the western world. So long as their economic needs/wants are taken care of they will do as they are told and continue to be the sheeple.
The problem isn't religion, it is human nature.

As far as th AG being muslims vs. Christians, that was concocted by the cryto joo leaders of the cup, the real motivation was political, i.e. pan turanism. This just goes to show how easy it is to manipulate people.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

"This just goes to show how easy it is to manipulate people. "
That is my point. Religion is the most effective tool for such manipulation. It really does not matter what this tool(religion) was designed for. What matters is how this tool is used.

[ashot24]

Re: Religion and Atheism

"This just goes to show how easy it is to manipulate people. "
That is my point. Religion is the most effective tool for such manipulation. It really does not matter what this tool(religion) was designed for. What matters is how this tool is used.

And it is used as everything for personal interests, as an example, some years ago in the county I live there were presidential elections, and one of the left-winged candidate had an amazing support by people...the right-winged candidates (which control everything) used the "church" (in " because that is no church) to spread propaganda by telling people the "Armageddon" we would face if such candidate won, and we saw quickly how the candidate with the highest support got down to the lower level on polls and did't even got to the top 10 rank. The church and the mockery of people's faith by all these "religious leaders" is an incredible economic tool and serves for manipulation in every religion all over the world, which is sickening...there's a saying which goes "The church/mosque/synagogue is such a good business there's a branch in every town"...

Religions are not bad, religions were meant to unify people and to make them one, to make their lives better by teaching them unity, tolerance, solidarity, respect and love...religions are good. But what is not only bad but terrible is the people, people who for the sake of their interests or their personal opinions changed by will the religious texts, by tainting them with messages of hate, prejudice, fear, etc. favoring them or their ideas, people who used the faith of the followers in order to gain benefits from them, people who through religion have fooled the masses by playing with their feelings. As you mentioned during the spanish conquests..there's no better example of how religion can be lowered to such a level that it is used as a tool of oppression better than the guns.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

"This just goes to show how easy it is to manipulate people. "
That is my point. Religion is the most effective tool for such manipulation. It really does not matter what this tool(religion) was designed for. What matters is how this tool is used.

I would say TV and the media is the most effective tool to manipulate people. People make fun of mennonites and the amish but they aren't affected by the world wide economy, nor do they care what TV or the media has to say.